Strength in Weakness

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Ray Ortlund
Where does the glory of God reside and rest and dwell in this world right now? On an afflicted believer? Yeah. Who’s at the end of himself, the end of herself wondering, how do I even go on? That’s where the glory comes.

Sam Allberry
And it’s so counterintuitive because we still find ourselves thinking, well, the power of Christ must be in the biggest church, the best Church, the brightest pastor, you know, all those kinds of things. But that’s the power of Christ here is is, is seen in weak Christian men and women who are clinging on to the Lord

Sam Allberry
Welcome to Your not crazy gospel sanity for young pastors were delighted to be part of the gospel coalition, Podcast Network, we’re grateful to them. We’re grateful to you for spending this time with us. It’s our privilege to have these these moments with you. So thank you for listening. Welcome to Ray.

Ray Ortlund
Thank you. Great to be with you, Sam.

Sam Allberry
Ray, just to kick us off. A manual worship is the sort of music ministry at Emanuel Nashville and have released a new album recently. Tell us about that.

Ray Ortlund
And the album is entitled gospel culture available where you know all the streaming services and download services and so forth. But it is an album about rejoicing in and celebrating a church as a manifestation of gospel culture. What does that look like? How does the church like that sing? And it’s I love this album,

Sam Allberry
any any standout tracks for you?

Ray Ortlund
The third track is, is just entitled as a recall gospel culture and it’s this bluesy sort of joy seriously joyful, bluesy number, that if I were a composer, it wouldn’t have occurred to me to come up with that sound and that vibe, and I absolutely love it. Yeah,

Sam Allberry
I love the world evolves song, Jesus Christ Lamb of God, yes. It’s so beautiful. He opens talking about the bruised reed that Jesus will not break just the sort of that that tender, sacrificial love of Jesus. So, do we’d encourage you to get a hold of that it’s a wonderful album. It may be something you can use with your churches as well, maybe some tracks that you can sing congregationally but um,

Ray Ortlund
uh, one more Sam, the very first cut gospel plus safety plus time, I dare anybody to listen to that and not be lifted up.

Sam Allberry
I don’t think we’ve we’ve talked about that formula yet in this podcast, have we not just in case we haven’t remind us what it is.

Ray Ortlund
Okay. Gospel plus safety plus time. It’s just a simple, as you say, formulaic way of that out a manual that we articulate what we’re reaching for, when we describe the intangibles of gospel culture, gospel, good news for bad people, lots of it every Sunday, all the time, never get tired of it, plus safety. The space where seriously flawed people, like every one of us, can rethink our lives at a deep level without worrying what’s going to happen to us if we actually open up and get real Gospel plus safety plus time. Because God is patient. I remember in my last conversation with David pelvis, and he asked me how I was doing and I gave him an honest answer. And he said, Well, Ray, God is patient. Where would we be without the patience of God? And a gospel culture? Church is a patient church. God is not putting our sanctification. He’s not measuring it with a stopwatch.

Sam Allberry
Just as well. Yeah.

Ray Ortlund
We change if we’re going to change deeply, it takes time.

Sam Allberry
It really doesn’t. I you know, the danger is we can say to a brokenhearted sinner, hey, we told you the gospel last week why Why aren’t Why isn’t your life together yet? But it takes us a very long time to change, isn’t it? Yeah.

Ray Ortlund
Psalm 57. One really is gospel plus safety plus time it’s you know, Lord, deliver me. Hide me in your shelter till the storms of destruction pass by. So, who doesn’t need the Gospel who doesn’t need safety who doesn’t need time? We bring those three things together and it creates a space a social environment, in which really messed up people can get their lives back. Yeah. Which is great.

Sam Allberry
Good. Well, right. This episode, we’re doing something slightly different. We’re doing it’s gonna be we’re gonna have a Bible study. Okay, so a passage that I know is very dear to your heart and to mine is Second Corinthians 12, one through 10. Paul talking about the thorn in the flesh. And it struck me this really is one of those passages that is a kind of Bullseye passage for thinking through gospel ministry, particularly the gospel culture and the sort of the fuel for it is not our own grandiosity and impressiveness and abilities. But actually, we’ll get to this but Paul saying, in verse nine, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, and thinking, that is not my natural starting point, when it comes to ministry, when it comes to how I see this world around me, so I’m thinking had Paul get to there because he, he’s not someone who will only admit a weakness when He absolutely has to, and it’s kind of unavoidable now. So I guess I’ll have to say, yes, I’ve got a weakness, he’s gladly boasting of weaknesses, plural. That is part of how the Lord is using him. He said that the power of Christ may rest upon me that that’s where we see the power of Jesus today is not someone out or summing the world, but someone boasting gladly of witness. So let’s think together about how Paul gets around at the passage. The passage take us there, help us set the scene, right. What’s what’s going on in in chapter 12? Here? Yeah, it’s a strange passage.

Ray Ortlund
It’s a strange book. I remember Murray Harris, the great New Testament granary and an exegesis saying that the very syntax of the Greek text of Second Corinthians is disturbed and upset because Paul is disturbed and upset. He said, This is the most human book in the New Testament. He’s raw, he is really he’s really hurting, really distressed. And, of course, the always formidable false teachers who were luring the Corinthian church away from Christ. They were always on top and always victorious, etc. And Paul flips it in this passage. He says they they boast of their spectacular experiences, and their their mountaintop, highs and so forth. I would rather boast about my catastrophic disasters and setbacks and disadvantages and weaknesses, and failings. God doesn’t meet our power with his greater power, God meets our weakness with his power, which really rubs us the wrong way. It really rubbed the Corinthians the wrong way. I mean, these were precious people. Paul loves them, he adored them. And they were the most flippant, self admiring, immature, kind of mouthy church in the New Testament, and he just loved them. And we are so Corinthian today, and we’re way too impressed with ourselves. We need to be impressive, way more than we should. If we have Christ, than our own impressiveness should become distasteful to us. But okay, so we don’t get that automatically. It’s not intuitive. So Paul has to actually talk to us and explain this to us. And we all end up loving Second Corinthians 12. Yeah, that’s a reassuring, isn’t it? How could we get out of bed in the morning without Second Corinthians 12? Yeah. So Paul is pushing back against actually, not just this passage is not describing a denominational option. This passage is describing Authentic Christianity as opposed to false teachers in heresy. Yeah. That’s what’s at stake here. So that’s what’s going on as we enter into the passage, Sam, what stands out to you here?

Sam Allberry
Yeah, my I just landed on chapter 11, verse 30, where Paul says, If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. So it’s interesting. He’s he’s playing their game, but by his rules, said that they’re sort of clearly saying that Paul is not as impressive as they are these other leaders. He’s not as impressive in the will the Corinthian ways that they think you should be. And Paul’s just totally leaning into that and going Yeah, yeah, I’m the way Paul is wanting to show the legitimacy of his leadership isn’t by saying, hey, on every measurable metric, I’m better than you. He’s saying, Here’s what qualifies me as a as a leader is my lack not my brilliance, but my lack and so on the basis of the things that show my weakness, not because he’s self loathing or anything like that, but because he he knows something about. We are never more useful to the LORD than member depending on him. Yes. And we never depend on the Lord more than when we’re weak.

Ray Ortlund
And Paul is personally embarrassed as he writes this. He’s very uncomfortable. He says in verse 11, I’ve been a fool. Yeah. But you drove me to

Sam Allberry
it. Yeah, this is this is not his, his natural way of having to speak about himself.

Ray Ortlund
He’s uncomfortable talking about himself, not because he’s so shy, but because his ministry is not about himself. It is really about Christ. I think the key is the first phrase of verse 10. For the sake of Christ, yeah. If that purpose, grips my heart, and for the sake of re loosens, loosens its grip, and for the sake of Christ enters in. I stop, this need to be really well thought of, to be formidable, to be impressive. And I relax. And I began to thrill to the idea, even the power of Christ could rest upon me. I totally don’t deserve that. I’d love to get involved in that. And as J i packer, in his book we’re going to talk about it later says weakness is the way

Sam Allberry
Yeah. And it’s liberating, isn’t it? Because if it if it does ultimately come down to how impressive I am, if that’s really what the kingdom of God is going to be hinging hinging on, I’m always going to be second guessing, I’m always going to be looking over my shoulder, I’m always going to be insecure, I’m always going to be despairing. Even when I’ve managed somehow, to pull off something where people do think I’m impressive. It’s so fragile. It could all come crashing down at any moment. Whereas actually, if if weakness is the way to use packers language, I can exhale, it doesn’t matter. It’s, it’s not contingent on me, there’s a security and that it stabilizes me.

Ray Ortlund
There are pastors out there who just can’t help but be impressive. They’re just amazing. They have a fantastic sense of humor, and amazing sort of presence in a room. Their natural gestures and preaching are sort of charming, and I mean, they just truly amazing and they can’t help it. It’s okay. And God made them like that. Yeah, but what about the rest of us? Yeah. So if, if if Pastor x is just thoroughly impressive in every respect, all the time. God bless him. Yeah, we don’t despise him. He’s not being unspiritual by being himself in Christ. But the rest of us Yeah, the mere mortals, right? Yep. Who I was preaching the other day and stumbled, I think I stumbled over the word, especially I had a hard time pronouncing the word especially.

Sam Allberry
Well, the English language can be challenging for those for whom it’s not.

Ray Ortlund
So those of us who do stumble, and who feel outclassed all the time. That’s just the mentality with which we enter into each moment. This passage really helps every pastor who is faithful to the biblical gospel and loves the Lord, and sees in himself so many reasons why he really should not make an impact for Christ. That man is equipped in every essential for the power of Christ to rest upon him the same way the power of Christ rested upon the Apostle Paul.

Sam Allberry
That’s amazing, isn’t it? It is, I love this, this text for so many reasons. But one of one of which is, if I really stop and think about what have I got going for me? That should make anyone feel like they need to listen to me. That’s a painful question to ask. And this, this passage is saying, if I’ve got the real Jesus, that’s all I need. If I’m unimpressive on every single, other miserable thing, but I have the real Jesus, and I’m preaching the real Jesus. You can’t be in a spiritually stronger position than that.

Ray Ortlund
Okay, here’s a real life historic example of what you’re talking about. I’m thinking of the campus laying revival, I think in 1742, up as I recalled in the Glasgow area, and although George Whitfield now there was a sparkling personality, right, he just had a natural flair and sort of dramatic manner, and his fantastic voice, and God built him for that, so that’s fine. But he came up to us Just once that Awakening was underway because it started under the Ministry of a parish minister named Mr. McCullough, who his own son in subsequent writings said was my language, sort of a lackluster personality. He was not a glittering personality. He was an ordinary man in pastoral parish ministry, without the gifts of a Whitfield, but it was through McCullough that the cambuslang revival began. Because the power of Christ rested on that man. And, and so we praise God for the church Whitfield’s of this world. But we are also really thankful for the McCullough’s of this world because most of us are McCullough’s. Yeah. And God can use us wonderfully.

Sam Allberry
Yeah. Well, that’s wonderful. Well, Paul talks about this thorn in the flesh. In verse seven. He’s just talked about this spiritual experience this extraordinary revelation that he received from the Lord, something he wasn’t even wanting to talk about. But he says in verse seven, so to keep me from being conceited, because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, which, I mean, that’s astonishing in itself. A thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. I’m struck by the fact Paul twice says in the same sentence, to keep me from becoming conceited. So this thorn in the flesh and we can get into what that means and all the rest of it. God’s purpose with that thorn is to stop Paul from being conceited. Clearly, whatever Paul had seen through this revelation was so glorious, so unusual. Paul may have been the only person who ever saw whatever it was, he saw. To keep him from becoming conceited. This thorn has given to him in the flesh, this this cause of pain, this this suffering. And it’s it’s sobering to me Paulus listed the dangers that he’s he’s facing in the previous chapter. You know, he talks about I’m in danger from rivers danger from robbers, dangers from my own people, danger from Gentiles danger in the city danger in the wilderness, dangerous sea, you know, wherever he is, he’s in danger. And yet, it seems one of the most significant dangers was was himself and the potential for conceit. Wow. And I hate saying these words, because I don’t want to hear them myself. But it was better for him to be in pain than it was for him to be conceited. That that’s how much the Lord doesn’t want Paul to be conceited.

Ray Ortlund
You know, that’s really strike. I never thought of it that way. The verse, verse seven begins and ends with that purpose clause to keep me from becoming conceited. Yeah, literally the wraparound purpose. So he says, It was a messenger from Satan. So there was demonic malice, in this affliction, whatever it was, yeah. But surrounding the demonic malice was divine benevolence, at care. It’s

Sam Allberry
fascinating as a messenger of Satan to harass me. That’s what the devil was doing in this is progressing, Paul tormenting him. And yet, through the same circumstances, the Lord is actually protecting Paul.

Ray Ortlund
Yes. I suppose there are three scenarios, one, get rid of the thorn, get back to normal and go on with ministry. Scenario One, scenario two, live with this thorn. And my whole life is derailed. I mean, I can’t even concentrate to prove to prepare a sermon. This is hurting so badly. Yeah. So live with a thorn and ministry is greatly diminished that scenario to scenario three, live with the thorn, add in the power of Christ, and go into warp speed. And that’s the scenario God chose for Paul. Yeah.

Sam Allberry
Gosh, that’s astonishing, isn’t it?

Ray Ortlund
And I’m struck also in verse nine that the power of Christ may rest upon me. As I recall, Sam, the verb translated rest upon was the verb used for the Shekinah glory hovering over the holy place in the Old Testament. It’s tabernacle, isn’t it? Yes, that kind of. So where does the glory of God reside and rest and dwell in this world right now? On an afflicted believer? Yeah. Who’s at the end of himself, the end of herself wondering how do I even go on? That’s where the glory comes. And

Sam Allberry
it’s so counterintuitive because we still find our So I was thinking, well, the power of Christ must be in the biggest church, the best Church, the brightest pastor, you know, all those kinds of things. But that’s the power of Christ here is is, is seen in weak Christian men and women who are clinging on to the Lord.

Ray Ortlund
And I think again, that phrase at the beginning of verse 10, for the sake of Christ, I wonder if Paul himself actually said that under his breath 10,000 times when this thorn was throbbing his his, his body was wracked with pain, for the sake of Christ, for the sake of Christ, for the sake of Christ. When we get there, Sam, God can use us.

Sam Allberry
Right away, we have the privilege of of being in Nashville. It’s a wonderful city in lots of ways. It’s such a spiritually needy city. If we were going to try to reach Nashville Nashville’s terms and be the kind of impressive church that Nashville would find impressive, what would we need to do? Oh, gosh,

Ray Ortlund
well, we would be displaying our impressiveness, our talent, our charm, and so forth. And we would, it would be an historic setback for the cause of Christ in the city from which it might take 100 years to recover. Nashville, I also think Sam is so done with platform impressiveness. Yeah, it is so false and fraudulent. What if the Christians of Nashville admit their failings, needs, wounds, and so forth? And the Lord meets us there? Oh, the whole city could show up. It would be wonderful.

Sam Allberry
Now what is what is going to compel the attention of Nashville actually is going to be weak Christians? Yes,

Ray Ortlund
that’s right. Yeah. I’m so done with being a mighty, you know, formidable. Man in my own gifts and talents and attainments.

Sam Allberry
The trouble is, if we are impressive, what that says to everyone else is, you’ve got to be impressive to be around here. Oh, that’s right. Whereas if we are our weak, that’s so inclusive.

Ray Ortlund
And if we give the impression that we’re really great at this, it the the hypocrisy spikes. Yeah. Because then everybody starts posing.

Sam Allberry
Yeah. Well, lots more we could we could say about that. Ray. We’ve mentioned our beloved Jai Pakka. Who’s whose ministry has been such a deep gift of God to us for so many years. We miss him. Yes, we do. We’re grateful for the legacy of his books. Tell us a bit more about weaknesses away?

Ray Ortlund
Well, it’s just a little book that crossway published three or four years ago, and it’s very accessible to every listener. Weakness is the way by J. pecker written in his latter years, as he was in decline physically in his final years, and it’s a profound book on a profound topic from a profound man. What if, what if our listeners the past young pastors, listening to this podcast, would read that book with their wife and discuss it together that could put their feet on a path of life, long profundity, and blessing and glory and power?

Sam Allberry
Wow. Well, we commend that. We are grateful to crossway as always for sponsoring this podcast that we love the ministry and that would be one amazing book to get your hands on. Thanks, guys. See you next time.

TGC
You’re not crazy is a podcast from the gospel coalition, hosted by Ray ortlund and Sam alberi, produced and edited by Andrew Lapera. Check out more podcasts shows from [email protected] forward slash podcasts.